okay...so I LOVE a good, HEALTHY, RESPECTFUL debate. I know I am new here, like super new, like an hour in, but I like coming in like a "wrecking ball" lol (sorry for the lame miley reference! really i am!!! lol) so I figured I would start a nice healthy debate : )
How do you feel about abortions? Is it really a RIGHT, considering it is a man made procedure and all, it is hard for me to look at it as a god given RIGHT, you know what I mean?
And honestly its not that I have a HUGE problem with it, I mean to me it would be aweful and VERY hard to live with myself, but for others I can tend to at times understand the decision. I just do not understand calling it a RIGHT. If you have the right to terminate your pregnancy, why does the male not have the same RIGHT, or hell why dont we all have the RIGHT to terminate the child after birth, because REALLY WHO DECIDES WHEN LIFE STARTS?
My bigger problem is not with abortion itself but the laws on it. First of all some states let you do legal abortions as far out as 22 weeks! In Indiana it is until 20 weeks! BABIES DREAM AT 17 WEEKS IN THE WOMB. I am sorry but by week 12 I was so in love with both of my babies if I would have lost them it would have been unbearable, so how can you say that 20 weeks is even considered an abortion, how is that not murder? Also, I can understand one abortion, after that I am lost especially when I know women who have had 3 or more, to me that is INSANE. When does it quit being a "mistake" or "choice" or "right" and become flat out murder? Anything after the 1st trimester and any more then one abortion should NOT be legal!
I would not judge anyone who has had an abortion and if you have had one please do not take offence to any of this, because it is merely my opinion, and who am I. I know it must have been an extremely painful and tough decision and only you know if it was the best one for all involved. I support your decision and offer my love, understanding, condolences, and support! if my message does not resonate or somehow disempowers you than it is NOT for you, so feel no obligation to take it! Also feel free to disagree and respectfully debate this topic with me!
Up to the women carrying the baby no matter how far along . That is completely up to the individual person.
Love all<> Eric
but what about the little person inside kicking, sucking their thumb, dreaming, thinking, feeling...do they not get some soft of say on whether or not the want some tool being inserted to twist off its arms and legs, crush its head and suck the rest it out and throw it away? I know that is a little detailed but shit that is what happens! That baby is an individual, what about the babies rights?
In general, I have a difficult time with saying that something should or should not be done without exception; there are a wide range of reasons and circumstances leading up to a person making a particular decision - I don't think I could even answer what I would do under the same circumstances because imagining it hypothetically would not be the same as actually experiencing it myself.
For that reason I feel like I lean more towards the 'spirit of the law' than the 'letter of the law', and I'm glad that it's not my responsibility to decide anyone's fate based on the decisions they have made! In one sense I think that there are natural consequences to our actions, and in another sense I see how people have a reasonable expectation as a society to feel protected from theft and harm. I also see that those most vulnerable are those who cannot protect themselves or speak for themselves.
If the choice were mine, I believe that I would always choose to carry a pregnancy to term rather than end it (but again, I cannot know another person's anguished decision until I have lived it). If my daughter got pregnant very young, I believe that I would offer to take care of the baby rather than know that a potential grandchild's life was ended prematurely. But I also respect that each person's choice is his or her own to make, and that I do not know how those choices might unfold and interconnect on the whole.
So what I'm asking myself is, does this mean that I condone murder? No, I don't wish that anyone murder anyone else, and I don't wish for women to terminate their pregnancies if other choices are available. I respect that people have reasons for what they do, and they might be reasons based out of ignorance or desperation. So should they be prevented from making those choices? I see where it seems like a wise decision to protect people from harm, but I also see where, despite the law, people will make the same decision anyways. So do the laws actually serve the purpose of protecting people from harm? I really don't know, so I'm throwing it out there as a hypothetical question.
I saw a clip yesterday where Hillary Clinton claims that availability to family planning, that includes access to abortions, actually has reduced the amount of abortions overall. I have no idea whether this is actually true or not - I don't always trust studies because it seems that you can tweak them to say whatever you want. Here is the link that I saw: http://www.upworthy.com/dont-ask-hillary-clinton-about-abortion-if-you-c...
Peace,
Trish
Thank you for your opinion and thoughts Trish. I agree whole heartedly! Hillaries answer was pretty interesting, I wonder how true that is? It seems like to me the rate would have to go up, not down, but I could be wrong. I guess knowing the option is there puts a little less pressure on the mother?
Hi Stacey,
I love a good debate too, thanks for stirring the pot!. I'm very confused about the abortion topic and no amount of thinking about it or life experience has made me feel sure about my position. I think I agree with Eric but you would never find me advocating for a women's "right" to an abortion in a state where it's illegal. The way I look at it - the fetus is alive from day one - but the relevant question is when does the fetus become an individual? My left hand is alive too but I think I have a right to cut it off if I want. Maybe not - it still seems like it would be an act that would denegrate life. But where do you draw the line? I pick at the skin around my nails from time to time and I also drink alcohol sometimes. Do those cells I killed have a right to life? I think until the baby could potentially be viable without Mom's help it's an inseparable part of the woman's body so she should be allowed to make that decision. I also have a hard time calling it a right though.
One thing I do believe is that there is far too little done to advocate for adoption as an alternative. Young women who bring an unwanted baby to term should be heralded as hero's and praised for their mature decision rather than being told to be shameful. This is an act that should be celebrated! It seems like many people are more repulsed by the idea of giving a child up for adoption than the idea of abortion! I think this is really crazy! I think many people confuse the desire to control a childs life with love. People need to understand that sometimes the most loving act a parent can do is allow the child to go to another home.
Thank you Wendy for your thought provoking responce! Believe me, you are not alone in your uncertainty about which "side" orf the abortion arguement to take! When it comes to things like abortion and even gay marriage I believe the reason these issues are used so heavily politically is because the mixed feelings people have about these things. These topics make EXCELLENT DISTRACTORS!
As a responce to you question of when does the fetus become and "individual" I believe the ability to respond to light, noise, and touch as well as to even have thoughts and dreams speaks miraculous volumes to the fetus's individuality! If you did cut off your hand, YOU, yourself would be in pain, but would YOUR HAND individually be in pain, would it CRY? THE CHILD WILL WHEN THE INSTRUMENT RIPS ITS ARM OFF...JUST SAYING!
Also, it could be argued that the child is STILL NOT VIABLE AFTER BIRTH! Ever hear of failure to thrive, a baby cannot survive without love. Granted at that point the survival of the child is not dependant on the mother IN PARTICULAR. I actually read an article a couple weeks ago...hold on let me get a link... http://www.naturalnews.com/041398_post-birth_abortion_infanticide_melissa_harris-perry.html
As a result of a child surviving an attempted abortion in Florida, plant parenthood is now arguing that after birth the parent should be able to choice whether or not to end a life. Arguing, that a child is not truely alive until the parent FEELS like they are alive and is actually calling for parents to be able to terminate their childs life up to AGE THREE, YES AGE THREE...so the question begging to be asked is this :
IS IT REALLY ABOUT WOMENS RIGHT TO CHOICE, OR IS IT ABOUT EUGENICS....
The answer to that question should come readily clear as soon as you do minimal research into the founder of plant parenthood Margaret Sanger and her feeling on black people, eugenics, and poor people! here is a link to quotes of hers:
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/03/11/10-eye-opening-quotes-from-planned-parenthood-founder-margaret-sanger/
As far as adoption goes... I fully agree it is definately the superior choice. However if I was in a predicument where the choice was mine and it was between abortion or adoption, it may be easier to deal with the abortion honestly, as selfish as that is. This comes from my own background in foster care. And granted I much rather have had my experiences then never to be born at all, but at the same time I could not live with myself everyday wondering what kind of life the child is leading. Some people have very good mask and paint a very different picture of themselves then what actually goes on behind closed doors. With my families history on generational abuse and dissociation I would not trust adoption with thing like the monarch program going on! WE NEED TO GET GOVERNMENT PROFITS OUT OF THINGS LIKE ADOPTION! We also need to make it more affordable to good normal people who want to love a child and cant! Please dont get me wrong, I am ALL FOR ADOPTION, I just could not personally do it, so I do see why some people would choice abortion over adoption with more meaningful reasons then merely not wanting to be pregnant and carry the child to term.
Thanks for your resposes Stacy, I agree with many points. It really is a very individual decision - like you said there are so many different life experiences people have that make what would be an easy thing for some people to do, very difficult for others. Yes, there seems to be a huge eugenics plan going on in this world, along with a lot of other crazy programs. I hope someday we can all look back on these times with relief that they are over and more hope for a new beginning. Your children are our hope - take good care of them!
Wendy
I agree whole heartedly Wendy, thank you so much!
Quickly killing an unborn fetus.
or
Sentencing a child to a lifetime of physical abuse, mental abuse, abject poverty, or hunger in an environment where he is unwanted and unloved.
our entrance and exit into this world....Who are we to say? What do we really know about either of them. This veil we are cloaked in upon our arrival here keeps these things a mystery for us. So, the debate is a moral issue, and our "morals" are usually shaped , or imposed by our parents, or whoever raises us, probably the tv for many. Politicians use it regularly to heat a political race,,,and it splits opinion down the middle. It is a question we can't answer for sure, and that's why they use it! People kill over the issue, which makes the idea that we have any evidence to stand on even more ridiculous !
I agree in a sense that it is a man made procedure, but there were abortions long before the surgical technique was invented. There are herbal methods as well that have been around a long time, but I don't know how long. I am only adding this because a lot of people seem to think that the surgical procedure was when abortions were "invented".
Personally,I couldn't debate either side of the issue, I have nothing to base it on , other than the "horror" presented by one side versus the "right to choose" by the other. Both stir big emotions!
But think about this! If it is true that we all agree on "who are parents will be" our children, etc.,,,,then,it could just as well be true that we agree to be an aborted fetus, living a short life in the womb. We just don't know!
L,,,,T
I think the abortion controversy is a hot button red herring issue. it is exploited to divide the masses and to keep us distracted from what's been going on behind the scenes. More essential is to consider how we can use our collective wealth provide, nutrition, healthy guidance, relevant education and life-long opportunity to each child born; instead of raising cannon fodder and laborers in the prison-industrial complex. I do not like the idea of aborting fetuses. But neither do I think it is fair to make contraception hard to acquire for young women and girls who are likely to have sex (1 in 3 is raped in her lifetime). These young people need to have a chance to find their way in the world without the 24-7 responsibility of a child before they are mature enough to take care of themselves.
Ultimately, each of us incarnated beings is a spirit. Each of our lives, however short or long, is a learning experience which appears to be digested before we sign up for another go at third density embodiment. There are issues to be experienced, felt and dealt with by mother, fetus and all others involved which are elements of life's lessons. IMHO we all grow from our actions whether we conceive of them as mistakes or miracles.
Personally, I would like to hear "right-to-life-ers'" rational for preventing abortions but condemming those "saved" lives to live in poverty and privation, to become cannon fodder in the bankers' wars, or slaves in sweat shops around the world...This just doesn't make sense to me.
We are the ones who make it a distracting controversy. . It is a simple answer there is no law that can rightfully tell a human being what they can or can't do with their body, I hope we all agree on that and with that being said it is not any persons body but the person pregnant . This leaves one conclusion it is up to the person having the child . Exceptions with Family and other events that may occur out of the norm , that family members would resolve . I do not agree with taking any life but that is what freedom is ,it might just be something that you don't agree with ::: but you have to give others the freedom to excercise their freedoms even if you personally think it is wrong . That is true freedom .
Love all<> Eric
but this is a man made proceedure. Laws on abortion to me is not telling the person what they can and cant do with their body but refusing a procedure that maybe should never have been available FOR ANYONE to abuse. There should be strict laws on a man made procedure the end lives.
if abortion was a natural thing I may have a different stance.
In traditional cultures there are herbs which will end an inappropriate pregnancy.
I was just telling Wendy in a pm that I had not thought about herbs being used for thousands of years. She also shared a quote and made the great point that once we allow morality into legistlation people will quit taking responsibility for there own moral decisions and behaviors. If we allow the government to decide for us what is right or wrong then that takes ALOT of responsibility off our shoulders therefore lessening the responsbility and therefore guilt and consquences of the individual. Thanks for the great thoughts and ideas everyone!
More laws you are joking !!! I hope !!
I think we need more taxes too.
Sorry being a smart alec here .
Love all<> Eric
Consider this. A young girl, just barely 18 finds herself pregnant. She HAS to marry because her father forces the union. 7 months later a beautiful child is born, a girl. She comes into the world breach, feet first kicking and screaming. Her mother's been unhappy through the entire pregnancy, do you think the child hasn't felt it? Her grandmothers raise her because her mother is so emotionally unavailable. Much of her life she struggles with issues of abandonment.
The girl is molested when she is 5, brutally raped when she is 11, and falls genuinely head over heels in love at age 15. No one has taught her anything about birth control, barely anything about 'sex', she's been repeatedly sexually abused and never gotten pregnant so the thought doesn't even occur to her. She is 5 months pregnant when her mother turns to her and says "your pregnant". She is in shock. She isn't asked what 'she wants to do." She can't even contemplate BEING pregnant yet. Her mother whisks her off to the abortion clinic, and a week later her child (the one she hasn't even fathomed exists) is gone. A month later, she tries to kill herself because she feels herself a murderer (at least if she buys into the traditional religious mentality of most of her peers.) Now while she's comatose, her visions begin. What they were is unimportant to this story.
Several years pass-10-and she has a child. She is a good mother. Her child almost dies 5 times before doctors figure out what's wrong. The girl/now the mother cries out to the vast universe, wrails at God, denounces everything she's been taught to believe in, believing there is no God that would make suffer the little children. She would take on anything in the world to spare her child. She feels somewhere deep inside that her daughter is paying the price for her inability to act so many years ago when her mother made all the decisions for her. In her own mind she is paying the price for not protecting that first child.
She begins to learn Universal laws-the law of cause and effect, she begins to listen to the mystical visions given her at 15 and more begin to pour over her. She dreams her lost child, she dreams her own forgiveness, she forgives her mother for what she only reacted to from her own life experience.
Many years pass. The girl now a mother with grown daughters listens as her own daughter says "I'm pregnant". She isn't happy or sad. She asks her daughter "how do you feel about it" knowing that is the most important piece. Her daughter is ok with it but afraid. Her mother says, whatever you do, we'll support you through your decision. A beautiful grandson is born. Half the family denies him because his parents aren't married. The other half believes him to be a gift. They bring him up that way. His mother leaves his father and he now feels those issues of 'abandonment' that his grandmother knows from so long ago. She teaches him what his mother struggles with and cannot yet.
He IS a gift and becomes a gift to the world.
Who's right? Who's wrong? Who's decisions are any of our decisions to make?
The girl child came in feet first kicking and screaming. It took half a century for her to understand her place in the scheme of things. Her own divinity, her soul group, her own lessons.
We concern ourselves too much about what is right and what is wrong for another person-the 'what will the neighbors think' mentality some of us grew up with. What matters has nothing to do with how things appear to others.
At the end of our days, we'll understand we all came here to learn our own lessons, we came to be of service to others, we came to overcome our own darkness, we came to be Light. As soon as we begin letting Light in-all these other questions, all the ones that make us think we have the right to judge others only serve to limit our perception. Abortion or any other choice you make or let someone else make for you should be made after careful consideration, meditation and understanding by those immediately involved and no one else.
I am in agreement with Todd:
"If it is true that we all agree on "who are parents will be" our children, etc.,,,,then,it could just as well be true that we agree to be an aborted fetus, living a short life in the womb. It might just be that the 'child' aborted was erasing accumulated karma very quickly in a way that was acceptable to that Soul and that Soul's contract. We still have much to learn, all of us.
I pray for all mothers and all children everywhere whether they are brought to full term or not. Motherhood is much underappreciated and good mothers and happy children so necessary for the health of our world.
just let's not abort this big one that we're all going through. collectively, we are all in it together. it may not all happen at the same "time". but hold true to the earth being reborn into something GREATER, thanks to all of our joys and sorrows, celebrations and sufferings. none of us can see the entire picture. but it helps to believe.
That was an amazing story and post onesong! Thank you!! I do agree it is a decision that should be, "made after careful consideration, meditation and understanding by those immediately involved and no one else."