Comments?
The "Religious Freedom Acts" allow discrimination against everyone who isn't "Christian" aka Muslims, LGBT, and any religions the "Christian Conservative" don't recognize!
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Jan M. Morris and 10 others like this.
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Gary Greer I think I understand how Christianity has had its foot on you and countless others throats for way too long already. So I get it. Enough is enough. But, I'm not sure and am curious as to why you relate Muslims or any other religious zealots with your cause against Christianity together as I'm fairly certain you are aware of what Islam allows and how Islam reacts when it comes to homosexuality? -
Gary Greer This is not directed at you personally Ricky. Being gay and treated unfairly and as less gives cause for change and fairness and betterment. But being gay (or a democrat for that matter) doesn't mean you know how to treat others well and fairly and as equals. Nor does being discriminated against determine if you will treat others well.
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Rick Schwabauer It's not about homosexuality, it's about freedom of choices, Personal, Religious, and other choices. You just put all Muslims in a stereotype and that's unjust. America was formed in freedom of religion not to force conservative Christian values on others! -
Gary Greer All I'm saying is it seems like you're doing that with Christianity I know what it's about. I mentioned homosexuality because you mentioned LGBT. Also I didn't lump Muslims, I lumped Islam. Huge difference.
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Rick Schwabauer No what I'm saying is the Religious Freedom Acts allow discrimination disguised under Christian Beliefs. I personally believe everyone is entitled to their choices and beliefs...never mind you don't understand so let's agree to disagree
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Jere Smith My interpretation of what Rick is saying is that this law allows discrimination based on religion. It appears the law was done to protect a Christian viewpoint (or at least that of some). -
Kelle Smith Zealots ....no matter who the are Christian or Muslim....are all the same....they are awful!!! -
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Gary Greer Right, I understand fully about the law and agree it's about choice. My comments are my perspective on how roles can get reversed if we are not careful. I ain't mad at you Ricky your my friend.
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Kelle Smith It shouldn't be a question of "if it could get reversed" it should never become law!
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Kelle Smith And none of us will have to worry about roll reversal, if there isn't such a discriminatory law
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Gary Greer Sigh ... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't keep him from pissin in it.
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Rick Schwabauer Sorry Gary I'm not sure but I find your horse to water comment offensive... I have tried just to have a philosophical discussion with no malice. As an Agnostic I feel my beliefs and choices should carry as much weight and respect as someone who calls themselves a "Christian". I have no intent of malice or offensiveness toward anyone's beliefs. I respect yours and you should respect mine without laws pushing your beliefs down my throat!
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Jeanne Keenan Listen... Gays and lesbians have been fighting for equal rights forever.. I say GREAT! Just because people don't agree with you(Christians ) now individual rights don't matter.. SAD and hypocritical
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Rick Schwabauer So here we go name calling Huh Jeanne Keenan! I've sat silent through many of your posts and comments and seems your hypocrisy it larger than most my friend! Happy Easter dear
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Rick Schwabauer This discussion is over! Good night everyone! Jeanne Keenan no hard feelings I hope to see you in May!
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Gary Greer I'm sorry Ricky. It was a joke. All three of you were starting to scare me and I peed a little bit. I respect you my friend and there are no beliefs any more valid than yours. I wasn't trying to comment in reference to the law even. Probably why there seems to be some confusion. Sorry about that.
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Rick Schwabauer The funny thing is Gary my post was never a GLBT intent. It was about freedom of religious choices, Agnostic, Atheist, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim...the right of religious freedom to choose!
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Gary Greer There's really only one thing all those groups don't have in common. Treating each other well.
Here are my thoughts on the subject. You don't have to agree with me.
Sexuality is on a continuum with heterosexuality at one extreme and homosexuality on the other and varying degrees of bisexuality in the middle. Each person's sexuality is unique and falls on a different point along the continuum.
Throughout history, roughly 10-13% of the population is homosexual. This leads me to believe that it's not some random phenomenon but is part of the fabric of life. Perhaps it's a built-in safeguard against overpopulation or is just another facet of this wonderfully diverse creation that we call life... who knows?
Homosexuality occurs naturally in nature. One of the more famous cases is of some captive male penguins who preferred the company of each other, even when females were introduced to their enclosure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
If one moves past the mainstream christian dogma and understands how the Bible has been edited and re-written over the centures, one realizes that the references to homosexuality are no more an "abomination" than eating shellfish (ever) or eating meat on Friday.
Homosexuality isn't a choice; it's an innate part of being. Why then should people be persecuted for being who they are?
Perhaps the bigger issue is, what business is it of ours as to what consenting adults do behind closed doors?
And how same-sex marriage threatens hetersexual marriage has always been a puzzle to me.
I pretty much agree with what you have conveyed.
Do you get anything from like the whole kind of take and flow of things. Just like how the conversation progresses and how it gets where and where not it goes?
1) Owners of businesses that wish to discriminate must place a placard on their window letting the rest of us know who they refuse to serve. I don't want to walk into a business and order my frappucino with soy milk and cane sugar only to then be told that I'm not welcome there. How humiliating! I would rather spend my money elsewhere.
2) Owners and employees of establishments that chose to discriminate against others based on a religious freedom law must wear some sort of garment or accessory that clearly identifies them as one that chooses to discriminate under a religious frredom law so that when these said individuals enter my place of business, I could return the favor.
I could just see it now. "I'm sorry mam, I realize that our flight from New York to Honolulu is 11 hours today but you own a business that refuses to serve gay people and this violates my belief system, therefore I can't serve you today. I hope you brought a snack".
Where does it end?
Can't we all just get along?
I just saw different people making different pointson an issue that is usually thrown into the mix halfway through the elections,,,it divides and decides elections,,,,and takes the focus of what's really going on...I do agree with the person who said,,,'I don't need another law" haha! we don't,,,I believe all discrimination laws should be erased,,,and , if any,,just one put in place,,,,one that says any discrimination is illegal,,,our own little universal law...
But really,,,how could everyone agree, when everyone is looking at a different facet of the subject? I think all moral issues are like this, which is why I try not to waste my energy on them,,it's just like giving away energy,,and no hope of a result,return, whatever.But I guess it is funny to read, as long as you are just an observer......
Maybe it's just me, but you lost me at the first comment. It sounds like everyone is talking without listening.
Exactly ... no one actualy responded to my comment. Everyone assumed I was standing by the law and approached me from that view point. From then on no one understood a word I said and didn't even listen really. Etc, etc, etc. Can no one (REALLY?) see my original point. These people are so blindingly focused on what they like and want, that they can't see their own discrimination towards any ordinary everyday individual that does not agree with them. Especially if they think you are a christian or in any way have any opinion that might appear right leaning. And that whole conversation prooves it.
Original point: The left (not ALL the left) sure seem to like to pal up with and use the Muslims for furthering their causes. Islam (I'm saying todays radical professers of Islam) will sever their heads before anyone and everyone knows it. Be carefull who you get in bed with so to speak. So I tried to make that point because that kind of minipulating, tight-roping behavior indicates to me their disingenuousness. Everything is never quite up front or always above board. Stooping is never absolutely NOT an option. So anyhow that got lost and I let it go right away.
My second point, since it kept going back to that stupid law was ultimately this.
Be not thine oppresser. Their cause has put them dangerously close to the very role of the people who have held them and so many others down through out history. I honestly believe that if they could they would force everyone to do what they like and think is right.
Now I didn't post this here to convey or make any of these previous points. I posted it because when all this was taking place, I was trying to consciously do some morphfing. I say a lot of what I say (not always) with a certain, not directly to the point, between the lines, even off beat kind of manner, and I guess I do that so a person actually has to think about the things being said and also to voice an idea in a way they may never have heard before. Or expressing a newer type concept, even to me.
What I'm getting at is yeah, I know how people are and I'm not daft. I know you never discuss religon or politics. I know it's not worth even bothering with people cause they see what they want. I know facebook is a waste of time. I know, I know I know already. But if you can jack around and open one small hole or let in one sliver of light or crack one small smile or not get mad and be vile and end up after the conversation, still being friends with an old school buddy who everyone always knew was gay (except me) or let the horse come in and piss in the water and not blame the horse or even point out that the horse didn't get the point about the horse ... geeze, then there is Nothing that is not worth bothering with. We will ALL know this one day.
The conversation sounds like everyone has their point to make but not relating to the other comments. It's common on Facebook for people to assume others are on the attack and go on the defensive. I had a bit of a hard time understanding what you were getting at too, Gary, what with all the peeing :-). I'm trying to sum it up to see if I got it right, but I'm having a hard time with it. Was your basic point that we're coming down overly harsh on Christians now and failing to see that this is also a form of discrimination?
Cheers,
Trish
You answered me while I was typing out a post :-)
I'm pretty literal-minded, so I don't easily get it when people do between-the-lines communicating. That doesn't mean it isn't useful though, just likely that I'll get confused. :-P
Trish
By George! :> By the way the horse thing wasn't a joke and I didn't pee at all. The one gal was all over the place with the "reversal" thing???? I mean geeze! So I started laughing to myself and thought about the "you can't make em drink" analogy and substituted the other tinkle thing, which, by the way, I thought was absolutely hilarious and no one got to appreciate the genius because I had to back off of it in trying to keep the peace.
Being discriminated against and being a part of that cause is not license do the same. It also does not mean that you are not perfectly capable of treating peolpe like total crap. New found freedom is reason enough to check your own bullshit at the door.
I agree, and while I am glad that LGBT rights and other rights are increasingly being acknowledged, I see what you're talking about in terms of lashing back at people who speak even a hint of public counter-culture thought. It seems we have been programmed to become our own thought police. People may genuinely feel that homosexual behaviour is morally wrong (as an example) - but voicing that opinion is now getting people threatened and bullied by thousands of people.
I recently read "A Righteous Mind," it's an excellent exploration of moral psychology and a biological and evolutionary analysis of the Liberal and Conservative viewpoints. By reading that, I'm less convinced that Conservative-leaning people have something wrong with them, and more convinced that they operate on a more multi-faceted moral compass different than my own with differing priorities, but overall there is a lot of common ground to be discovered, if only we framed the conversation in each others' language.
Cheers, Trish
I read the original post Gary, and re-affirmed why I don't facebook! So many words and so little common sense (from some) and so much time spent wasted-my grown kids can barely put their blasted phones down. But that's not my rant today....
The focus of your post, this crap about needing a law because of 'freedom of religion' that allows exclusion of anyone is an absolute abomination to me. First, anyone that believes Christ's message contained any modicum of 'exclusion' needs to immerse themselves in those teachings and open their hearts and minds because they aren't 'getting it'. Second, any establishment that wants to deny service to anyone, has simply to post a sign saying 'we reserve the right to refuse service'-don't blame it on 'religion'. Many a sign like that kept out the bikers I knew in the 70's and the ones I knew weren't a threat to anyone, they just 'looked' different. (Or the guys like my husband that wouldn't have worn a tie and suit coat if their lives depended on it.)
Today it's about sexuality but tomorrow it will be about kids with bright colored hair or shaved heads or head coverings or whites or blacks or asians (oh yeah, we've already been living that crap for centuries)...on and on and on. I mean isn't this just racism by another name? I really gotta say "what's religion got to do with it" ?
Waiting for a day when people begin to understand what we do to others, we do to ourselves. When I see someone, I hope to really SEE them. The Being that is eternal, unblemished, and joyfully real. Not the diminished, exclusionary, judgemental, fearful facades we 'good people' sometimes hide behind. It's time to strip away the bullshit and not accept this sort of it.
My attitude is, any business that exludes ANYONE will not be a business that gets any of my business. Hopefully, more and more good people will get it. Putting those good vibrations out there is part of what we came here for. Doing it now...Peace.
oh yeah, and I forgot to say (I musta learned this in another lifetime) but just don't be pissin' in the wind!
You know Trish I think you are absolutely right. One of the main things I pick up on is when you hear someone talk off guard (A lot of my family are conservative, a lot of my friends are progressives) from either "side", they always say the other side would rather this or that or they think this or that and state what they believe the other side to think. Invariably they are wrong. I know from experience, that's not what they think or how they view things from their perspective. We get all worked up and the emotions keep you where your perspective is narrowest. You have to stay narrow so you can readily explain your truth, so on, so on, ... buh! hahaha! We are silly sometimes. it's embarrassing. j/k
I was just thinking yesterday about what I see is, everyone really, if you get down to it, wants the same thing. We don't always know exactly what it is. Can't quite put our finger on it in a way that someone else would understand, etc and in the mean time everything gets distorted so we get sidetracked. We stand up an boast our achievements but we don't achieve (or even say we need to figure out) the most important thing for us as we are. Communicating and understanding each other in a way that is not detrimental to our existence.
Thanks for your effort and understanding Trish. You hit my nail right on the head.
Just adding one more idea here. I think this will all subside without resistance if, or when really, we can develop or telepathic abilities to communicate. No confusion or deception or hoarding knowledge, etc. All that stuff loses it's power and is rendered obsolete. Dropping the veil.
If you exclude them from "your business" aren't you doing the same thing? I agree with the premise that discrimination and exclusion is wrong. I don't agree with your belief of what's in their head or their motivation. I have said this before but if I had to vote on the law, I wouldn't. So I don't want or favor the law. The way I interpret their reasoning is not to exclude someone from their business, it's to make sure they are not obligated for their business with you to promote or address your cause or differing view. If you want pancakes you get them. If you want Russian or blue or religious or gay pancakes you may not get em and you have to accept that. It's like a parent saying no we're not going to do that to his child. I can tell you why they think it's necessary also. They can see y'all comin all worked up and shit, ready to whoop em into submission in a misguided attempt to do the right thing.
However they also do not understand that the law is unnecessary, as is about every law I can think of. (unnecessary for different reasons than I've seen anyone state.)
Cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate cogitate...
No point in trying to convince others through WORDS, when it takes personal experience for something to sink in. It's like making dolphins play silly games with shapes and colors when they are much more intelligent than all that. Plus it makes oneself look like a complete idiot for persisting with such folly. Change the angle, focus on thyself. And stop drawing proverbial non-existent lines in the sand! While the wind and waves blow on...
The best laid plans of mice and men...
with a side of cognitive dissonance inflation. its the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine....
polarization in a police state nation. how bout that cop shooting that guy in the back five times and then planting the tazer next to the dying person he declined to help. fuggin cacacacacarrrrrayyyyzzzzzzzz man!
I can only hope and pray that this kind of bizarre-ness on steroids is the threshold of better times in human evolution to come, once this shit runs its dizzy course....
In response to your last post Gary 'If you exclude them from "your business" aren't you doing the same thing? I agree with the premise that discrimination and exclusion is wrong. I don't agree with your belief of what's in their head or their motivation.'
First, I am not 'in business' so there's no way to exclude anyone from my business. I can and do exercise my voice and choice by not supporting any company that would discriminate and exclude others. I am unemployed and Grandmothering full time at this point, having left the business world knowing full well that I didn't agree with the way many large businesses and corporations currently operate and making the decision that my grandson was more important than fleeting financial abundance.
I have always had what I need, though not necessarily what I thought I did at the time. I was in the healthcare field for most of my adult working life and made a decent wage but disliked the politics of it. It was an easy decision for me to resign and one I have not regretted for one moment.
I don't presume to know what's in anyone elses head, nor do I believe that the way I live should in any way be imposed upon others. I believe it's up to me to master myself, no one else. The most important task in this lifetime for me, is self-mastery. I'm not one to 'get all worked up' nor am I one to even think I could whip anyone else into submission. I feel on a karmic level, that I'd pay dearly for it were that the case. Don't know if I've answered your questions, but that's my thoughts. kristyne
I hear you barkin hound dog.
Don't forget to think ...
Don't say words ...
Don't be or appear to be a proverbial idiot ...
Try not to persist in my folly ...
I are but shouldn't be a drawer of fake lines ...
Sounds a lot like my Dad.
Cool.
Woof woof ...
I like it when the dolphins pop out those torus rings and start playing with them.
Cool
P.S. Your quote "will not be a business that gets any of my business." <======= That's the "your business" I was referring too.