Gun Control is Democide

I am a died-in-the-wool pacifist, but I agree with what is presented in this video.  Gun control is essentially a "monopoly of force" that can have severe consequences to all citizens.



Noa's picture

It will be interesting to see how much the media may affect these gallop poll numbers over time. ~ Noa


Gallop: Record Number of Americans Oppose Handgun Ban
Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:13

Gallop: Record number of Americans oppose handgun ban


A new 'post-Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting' Gallup poll shows 74 percent of Americans now support the right to possess a handgun, while just 24 percent would support a ban.

gallop pistol.gif

And a majority of Americans remain opposed to an assault weapons ban -- something Americans supported a decade ago.

Gallop rifle.gif

In other words, Americans may like the idea of new gun control laws, but supporting the actual inaction of legislation to control them is an entirely different matter ... which makes more gun control a very difficult issue for Congress to legislate, as it damn well should be.

Brian's picture

I once saw an article about major polling companies that showed Gallup is consistently biased to support conservative agendas. I paid attention over the last couple of national elections. They may be. They repeatedly claimed Romney's numbers were higher than any other pollsters in the runup to Election day. They supplied the "neck and neck" data the news people ran with.

No matter. With a major gun ban Obama would be trapped in the White House by hysterical mobs because as a Republican (and gun enthusiast) friend of mine said to me the other night: " Obama? He's a God-damned communist and you know what else?-He shares all of the same character traits as Stalin and Hitler!" -"They also were raised by their mothers after their fathers abandoned them..." It flew out of her mouth like she was possessed by a demon. This from a mother of two girls who is so full of love and compassion for others.........I was sort of shocked but mostly disappointed.  I just said something about how I had assumed she was the kind of person who thought all politicians were corrupt...she kind of gave me a shrug (of admission?) to that idea. I think it's the true prevailing view of most people when they aren't all fired up. I guess it's mine.

 I'm so glad she and I have core things in common so much so that we never even discussed politics!  She's not the only person I have become very fond of lately who turns out to have strong conservative values. I'm glad because it reminds me of when I was a kid and I had friends of all stripes and we just liked each other for the things we had in common-and it was a lot! Politics is like a wild animal that your friend has in the basement. Don't go down there! Make any excuse! You'll get torn to shreds. God I need to take my own advice.

Wendy's picture

Thanks Noa,

That film is way better than the John Birch Society film that I posted, that most liberals wouldn't trust anyhow. It makes the case that wide gun distribution is supportive of democracy, something liberals would relate to and understand.

When as a life-long liberal, I started working on the Ron Paul campaign, it took a while to understand that right and left was about different ideas about how to promote the most good for the most people. The right wingers I encountered weren't selfish but genuinely believed that lower taxes would help the poor more than government handouts. I'm not sure this is always the case. Cynthia McKinney supports free college education and it's been found that government programs like this pay for themselves. My change in thought process about gun control though has remained - power should always be as widely distributed as possible to keep government power in check.

Noa's picture

Good point, Brian.  It's been said that a poll can be engineered to reflect any statistics one would like to promote.

(Please watch the video.)

Brian's picture

Really? Noa-this video is so over the top and it's completely biased...I being for gun control in the US am portrayed as an irrational twit. Can you not spot bias? And again with the NRA nuke option: If your point is that we need guns because we need to be able to overthrow the federal government I was just wondering: When is your flight home and which paramilitary group will you be joining?

There are so many other democratic countries that have far superior standards of living, tiny fractions of our gun violence and greater social fairness, fewer incarcerated people, fewer drug problems and higher rates of happiness. They also have strong organised labor movements to reign in power of money and government excesses. A lesson systematically erased from our social memory. So, is 90 guns per hundred people "freedom"? Is that the only way America can be happy is with even more guns and threat of violence? No one else in the free world puts guns in teachers hands. Is that how we are safer?

I personally think people should have the right to bear arms like pistols (for self protection) and bolt-action hunting rifles or manual load shotguns. It would be a good compromise.

But saying semi-automatic rifles and shotguns (I had one that fired about 4 or 5 rounds per second) is necessary to thwart tyranny? I think it's just a fantasy.  We're all going to be heroes in glorious victory over the enemy-our own army.  Q. do you think all the red blooded American(and almost 100% conservative Republican) soldiers are really going to be able to follow orders to attack US civilians? I don't. They'd be on our side in a heartbeat and kicking Washington's ass.

Noa's picture

1.  I don't disagree with you, Brian.  I've never seen the sense in private citizens owning semi-automatic weapons. Then again, times have changed and my mind has changed with it, and it may change again.

2.  I've never pulled a trigger in my life, so don't count on my protection. Plenty of gun owners would be happy to step up to the plate.  I don't know how effective they may be against what the military has, but at least they'll make a valiant effort.

3.  I don't know if the video meant to portray people as "irrational nuts" as much as it is meant to point out that we've been duped again.  Kinda like Agenda 21.  It's sold to the public as a way of conserving and managing our environment, when ultimately it's just another way to herd the masses into controlled areas and restrict our movements and pleasures (among other things).

4.  Another thing we might consider is that FEMA, DHS (or whatever nut job org. is in charge) is training foreign military on American soil to control civil unrest in the U.S.  Obviously, foreign troops are less likely than our own to disobey orders to shoot us.



Thomas-Rene's picture

"do you think all the red blooded American(and almost 100% conservative Republican) soldiers are really going to be able to follow orders to attack US civilians? I don't. They'd be on our side in a heartbeat and kicking Washington's ass." Bob 07.

       It would be nice if it were that way, Bob, but things just ain't the way they used to be. Many of our boys are UN. In the event UN troops are called in I feel certain that they will not be our fellow Americans and they will follow orders. No less so for Homeland Security, a domestic service that recently purchased four million rounds of ammo. Anyone else remember watching a George H W Bush speach near the end of his term where he called for the implementation of "Fatherland Security?" He took the words right out of Adolph's memoirs.





Brian's picture

 I take it the lack of anyone speaking any resonance with my viewpoint is my cue to start over. Sorry to have voiced this ridiculous idea. Having more powerful guns is what makes life worth living. Whew! I feel better. We need weapons. You know what would work to overthrow the government even better? Tanks! Let's start a tank and tracked weapons lobby. And artillery! The King of Battle. And mines, gas, nerve and biological agents should be the right of very American family. What am I forgetting? Oh yeah-Nuclear Weapons!! WoooHoooo! Give me a couple of 5 megaton Hydrogen bombs and I'll show you a free America. Let's see....I know I'm forgetting something.........oh-Teachers should be armed with assault weapons......Nooooooo-I know! Cops! Let's place cops in every single school! That isn't a recipe for ever-greater government intrusion in our children's lives! ...and higher taxes and expanded government. No! And let's make sure all the little ones have RFID tags so when the cop's on the other side of the school (my high school had 2500 students) and doesn't kill the shooter until after the first couple dozen rug rats are blown apart it will be quicker and easier to clean up.  No wait-I have it! DRONES! We need more drones-weaponized of course. With ability to track and autonomously execute suspicious individuals approaching a school zone. And let's build huge fences around the schools with razor wire and attack dogs. How about every child is accompanied by an armed parent throughout the school day. There are so many better options than limiting semi-automatic weapons-even though it does work. Because that would be wrong. Let's not take any action at all. Fuck those stupid 6 year olds. With no action, that is exactly what we are saying. Sorry-we aren't willing-we might have to overthrow the federal government in armed combat or something.

Bob07's picture

"Q. do you think all the red blooded American(and almost 100% conservative Republican) soldiers are really going to be able to follow orders to attack US civilians? I don't. They'd be on our side in a heartbeat and kicking Washington's ass."

Maybe Brian, but you've heard of the Milgram Shock Studies? and

and the Stanford Prison Experiement?

They both show that people tend to follow the orders of authorities rather than consult their own sense of right and wrong.  I hope we've evlolved beyond that now, but I'm not betting the farm on it.  So, "They'd be on our side in a heartbeat..."?  I wish I had your certain knowledge.

hey brian,

i hear ya.....and agree...

americans are crazy with their weapons and "right" tp have them.

when a cop pulls over an americam motorist it is high drsma, the cops have to be extreme because they almost expect a weapon....not here, if i get pulled over i usually get out of the car and go to the cop. you suffer for your right to weapons amd you dont see it.

tank man in china didnt have a gun, thats one reason he was able to do what he did.....

now if your holding a gun will an american soldier shoot you  the same as if you didnt while enforcing martial law, he doesnt know if you will shoot?

Brian's picture

Thanks jez. It's nice to have some company. I'm shocked no one else can consider limits on specific types of firearms.

You each say US citizens have the right to arm themselves to wage war-combat-on the US military-the most powerful military force in recorded history. (remember: American soldiers can't be counted on to disobey orders-right?)

Q. Does anyone object to or disagree with what I just said?
About the opinions voiced here:
Each knows we'll have more gun massacres of children.
None felt compelled to suggest anything better (than restricting semi-automatic rifles and shotguns).
Each eluded to a vague idea of needing to prepare for civil war as your overriding priority.

Thanks for helping me to understand your life's priority. Let's not be vague about this-warfare would have to be your top priority and you're all preparing for it-right?

I guessed wrong that at least a few people would speak up and say that something must be done. How disappointing.

tscout's picture

  your not alone,,,I have been watching this discussion,,as well as the others,,,and agree with you on most points....Of course, the govt. knows who and where the miltia groups are already,,and would promptly wipe them out, as they are easy targets, and can't go one on one with the stuff the military has. I think people with guns would become targets. I know, in New Mexico anyways, they have been training german, and other troops for years,,and watched a random interview with a soldier that was pretty scary some years ago, with him vividly describing what they were told...I also believe that the American soldiers involved would have mixed responses to taking orders to kill their own...I can't live in fear of that, as there are other forces at work on the planet,,and would contribute enough to cause a breakdown in any plan to herd us into these camps, or just kill us off..I also don't believe in spending too much time thinking about it,,,and giving my power over to it. If I am unarmed, I am not a threat, and am less feared by any soldier holding a gun on me......I also think that the "smart people" with guns would know enough to give up the registered ones,,and hide the "illegal" ones until they could be used is pretty easy to kill someone with an ink pen, you know, especially if you aren't seen as a threat,,,so, I ,like you, don't think that fighting guns with guns will help....but, I would defend my life, or others when the time , and situation is right, with whatever is at hand..That  said,,,,i think we are forgetting about the crowd control weapons that eliminate the need for guns, and soldiers,,,,the government bragged that they would use these at the 2004 conventions if things got out of hand...with those things in mind, we seem pretty helpless in numbers anyways,,,and would have to find other ways to break the back of any effort to herd us.... ...So, in effect, i don't see guns as a way to defend ourselves in this situation that is mentioned repeatedly in this post anyways....If we are convinced we are helpless without them,,,,then we probably will be,,,,,,so maybe the issue being put on the table again is just a double-edged sword, meant to divide us even more....If you think you are safe with a gun,,,your kidding yourself !  and if you are made to feel helpless without one,,,,then they win both ways......the debate just breeds more fear !













Brian's picture

Yes fear is "their" weapon. "They", the unknown, the secret shadow government, aren't exposed so they aren't quantified or qualified for us to examine and create tactics to fight with force. They seem to have 'wide latitude of action', but only in brief, secretive bursts and in hidden causation. 

We face the most sophisticated enemy ever seen because they are hidden shoulder to shoulder with everyone else. Some of them think they are doing the right thing. Some are military officers and some are office assistants. Many are trapped under oaths of secrecy and are desperate for change to release them. You're not going to kill them with a gun. Only with peaceful actions can this internal foe be defeated. You have to outclass him where he is weak and sunshine is his greatest fear and weakness. It takes creativity and courage. It takes bright sunshine and love and disobedience. It means facing this fear we all have of being swallowed up by evil and doing what we can to educate others so they can choose to fight too. It doesn't mean hoarding guns. By the time you need to use one it will be too late. Gun hoarding is actually denial and postponement and military tacticians say postponement is always to the benefit of your enemy. The Gspot was an offshoot of Need To Know wasn't it? About learning a better way? Tell me I'm wrong. I don't care. I came here to learn about life and rediscovered it's wonderous and beautiful. But it's a mysterious gift of great power. It is what you say it is.

Wendy's picture

The most powerful force in military history lost to the North Vietmanese because so many were armed.

Britain was the most power military force during the time of the American revolution.

Numbers mean a lot. It isn't a hopeless idea to think that Americans armed with shotguns could combat against UN troops, fighting for the US government. The point isn't to be planning or hoping for a revolution but as the film states creating a democratic balance of power against the power of the US military. Gun control laws were the first step in a series leading up to the Holocaust in Germany.

If there's any banning to be done it should first be for violent video games and these drugs that are making people go beserk.

As we take more personal responsibility for all aspects of our lives (including protecting ourselves) there will be less need for government and more peace, liberty and happiness all the way around.

Brian's picture

OK-I'll grant you every point.

I'll take it your answer is:

  " I believe there should be no limits on ownership of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns so I may be free and able to engage the federal government and UN troops in armed combat".

 Is that a fair representation of your position?

Brian's picture

I forgot to say I think you misunderstood my gun ban position.

I didn't say we should have no shotguns and rifles. I propose we ban self-loading, rapid fire semi-automatic ones. These are the weapons that fire as fast as you can pull the trigger and empty a magazine.

These made it easy to kill the 5 year olds in rapid succession because you don't have to stop, cycle the bolt to reload it, and raise it to fire the next round.
Had bolt action rifles been used at Newtown the gunman couldn't have killed the adults fast enough to prevent them from tackling him to the ground...with their bare, unarmed hands. So they would have been able to take responsibility for their lives better as they would be alive.

 In case you didn't know it, in war, easily the most terrifying and lethal 'weapon' is the sniper. They almost always use bolt action hunting rifles. Wendy, you will be able to cut down UN soldiers most effectively this way as rapid fire weapons would almost certainly be less usable in a guerrilla war anyway. After you blow the brains out of your first guy, his fellow soldiers will hesitate to fight and have been known to disobey commands under the threat of court marshall or even death from superiors. Interestingly Noa, women have been shown to be superior snipers in many cases because of their stamina. See the battle for Stalingrad in WWII. Snipers are credited with hundreds of kills per man or woman. Hundreds. That is the most lethal kill ratio for a weapon or soldier.

So we can have gun control AND we can all take greater responsibility for our lives.


Thanks for your posts brian, 

what you ask for is close to here, im not sure why anyone needs a shot gun. people use rifles for shooting animals, i know and give shit to many shooters. there are still guns, but they can at least claim purpose, we have many ferrel animals and often have to cull roo's so the shooters serve a purpose.

why would anyone need military weapons?.....designed to kill people, we laugh at the stuff you guys can order off the internet, pretty much anything, totally rediculous.

we tend to believe its all ok though as in the end your all just going to shoot each other....seems determined to do it, .....only in americe.....

hey wendy, 

could it be possible that your programed, unquestioning and really just waiting for the moment when you will re-enact, re-manifest your forefathers? so many americans seem to believe right and wrong is about who has the biggest gun. i tend to see guns as a toool of the coward, the weak like them because they can steal with them what they cant get through honourable means. from a spiritual perspectiveif what you really want is a fight, a fight you will get....

ghandi didnt have a gun,  

Brian's picture

Yeah I don't object (much) to hunting for sport though I see it hardens hearts. Bow hunters are effective at culling deer overpopulation here too. I hope you guys can open up your eyes a little, put down the conspiracy filter for a minute and just try to understand we have a really huge problem here and we need to think as adults trying to save lives. Get all the guns you want-have a thousand of them. Let's just get rid of the rapid fire weapons that let these people commit so many murders in so little time.

Wendy's picture

I've had this conversation before here about who do we trust. Because that's really the question - who, if anyone should we trust to have guns? It would be nice to have no guns at all but currently we are stuck in a situation where some of us have guns. People who have proven that they are not acting in the best interest of humanity are in control of the people with the guns. I'm talking about the US military and the psychopathic banker/corporate interests that control them. Doesn't it make sense to do everything in our power to place controls on this corruption?

The media and schools have done a good job in training us not to trust in each other. This lone nut story about Newtown is just another lesson.  The argument goes, we should trust the government to protect us from lone nuts and the general population is not to be trusted. I prefer to trust in the general population myself. I think people are generally very kind and generous but get grabby and childish when they are placed in positions where their freedom is limited and they are dependant on others for their livelihood. Whatever we can do to place power in the hands of the people over authority is a good thing. Freedom promotes and supports adulthood, prosperity and generosity in my opinion.

I guess the other question that is important here is who do you believe actually did the Newtown shooting? If it was a lone nut then we need to learn how to control lone nuts better, maybe a rapid fire gun ban would help but I would still prefer a solution that gets to the cause of the creation of lone nuts. However, I think the Newtown shooting was more likely the act of rouge government agents, in which case any gun bans would only make the rest of us sitting ducks for a possible future attack.

Jez, please don't assume that I or most Americans for that matter believe that might makes right. Our government stopped answering to the will of the people long ago. I'm thoroughly ashamed of the actions of our government and these wars of aggression they have been engaged in. All the more reason to do whatever we can to deter them from further power grabs.

Noa's picture

Well-said, Wendy.  Personally, I'd have a tough time choosing sides in this argument.  I'm basically anti-gun, but as noted in this thread, "gun-control" doesn't eliminate guns it just leaves one segment of the population unarmed against the gun-toting criminals.  Few well-informed people can deny that "criminals" are coming from the ranks of our own government and elite classes and even if they don't "pack" themselves, they can afford to employ armed forces to do the dirty work for them. 

If you don't see the writing on the wall, maybe this will give you pause...




Brian's picture

I fully understood that Wendy and it was very helpful for me to hear it. There is a sound logic as to your conclusions and I won't try to persuade you further. I just haven't come to the same conclusions as you have. Why would there be a military takeover of our physical property when the Federal Reserve system and the bankers have already stripped me of my hard earned wealth without a shot fired? And Wendy- I worked extremely hard for decades to accumulate a sliver of wealth and a small contribution towards my retirement and it's all gone-no home-had to sell it, no retirement-had to live off it-no decent job-the economy was shredded by Wall Street excesses due to deregulation. I have a shrinking part time job now which the "Fiscal Cliff", if it is not resolved tonight, will have destroyed by morning. Panic selling in Asia right now, and here in the US by morning- will wash it away forever. Oh-and there will be a depression like the Great Depression within days. Automatic cut of 800,000 jobs instantly. Thousands of dollars in higher taxes for every family. Do the numbers.

"As we take more personal responsibility for all aspects of our lives (including protecting ourselves) there will be less need for government and more peace, liberty and happiness all the way around."

Yes, I can see the clouds parting and sunbeams shining through. We'll all be small farmers-all 300 million of us-currently in suburbs and cities. No matter-we'll form ploughshares from our Sentras and Siennas and somehow throw buildings, homes and highways off the farmlands.

I understand the "Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" message you have for me.  It's quite literally a fairy tale cooked up by businessmen so people will unconsciously reframe their own shitty wages and conditions as "Tough Love" by their betters-their wealthy boss.. I don't fall for it anymore.

...and "Less Government" means less regulation-so businesses can emerge once again as the paragons of morality and ethics we all know them to be..... but which is currently being restrained by the horrid Eco-Nazi's in Washington. Damn them regulators!

Your dream would be closer to "The Road Warrior" with Mel Gibson as your hero. "Less government" is a brilliant hunk of mind control-repeated again and again by individuals, politicians and corporate media. It is a superb mantra to get people to work against their own interests. But you won't see that.

Oh- and it works brilliantly in the fight against reasonable limits on rapid fire guns. Naturally.

Wendy's picture

Hi Brian-

I'm sorry for your losses. Wish I knew what else to say - we seem to agree on what the problems but not on how to solve them. Here's to hoping 2013 will be better.

Brian's picture

Sorry Wendy

You didn't deserve that attack by me. It was a lousy way to behave and I apologize. I didn't even mean it. I'm just sick with desperation. My life is in the hands of politicians I didn't elect who's necks I'd like to ring.


Wendy's picture

No problem Brian- I lost my job in the housing industry back in 2008 or so and even though I'm employed now I don't like my job or get paid as well as my old housing industry job. There must be another way to apply your skills - that's what kept me employed.


tscout's picture

  It really hit me when i read your post to wendy the other day. I was in a small town, Taos, and it creeped up on me there,,,over 3 or 4 years. I was surprised that you were still working in the construction field at all ! i was pretty well known for my stonework in taos, but the work just got less and less each year. The house i rented, and had tried to buy for years(they didn't want to sell then), finally went on the market, after I had used up my buying power,,,and I couldn't buy it.  Recovery from a car accident, then cancer ate up everything i had. when they sold the house I was living in, everything else had come to a head, so I decided to do something I had always wanted to do,,,,go to china !  It has been a great experience, but I'm having trouble finding a way to come back and start over there,,,in america. It sounds like the worst is yet to come, and that doesn't scare me,,,but the practical side is,,I have to be able to make a living to come back , period...........

    So, your frustration rings true with me too !  I'm not sure where I fit in anymore,,,,especially there. Here, there are plenty of jobs, but the indifference to everyhting else, starting with the environment, is wearing on me here. People all want to check out the foreigners here, but it is really hard to make a real friend, as they are so stuck in their belief systems. 

With all your new interests, i hope you will keep your eyes open to any opportunities that might present themself. I know there is a way for us all to get through this...

and bottom line, regarding this post as a whole,,,,,I agree with you. I think we have to do something different at this point, respond differently to the gun control issue, or things will never change..It is a chance we have to take..what we need is another choice, besides gun control, because , no matter how you vote on it,,,the focus is still on guns !  hang in there buddy,,,,,,,,,,,T

lightwins's picture

Top Ten Killers

by atrueott


Amazing stat chart.   The Agenda of "Big Brother" is clearly not about public Safety and Protection.  No, the Agenda is about CONTROL of the People - aka as "Tyranny".

Brian's picture

lightwins-very interesting list but off point-I almost fell for it. No one forced those 20 6 year olds to smoke for 30 years, no one tried to kill them with anything else on that list...except with a semi-automatic rifle. ...If he'd tried to kill them all with a baseball bat he could not have fought off the adults fast enough to succeed. A semi-automatic rifle (people may call them Assault Weapons) with a large clip of ammo allows you to kill everyone fast enough that almost no one can stop you..anyone who rushes you can be cut down-at a distance even.  The terror factor of loud gunfire contributes to a paralysis of action.

The list isn't about easy and readily available methods of rapid mass murder is it?

But to those who keep saying we'll need these guns to fight Uncle Sam-consider for 10 seconds-What if you're wrong? Probably around 95 percent of Americans disagree with you. Is it just a fear campaign?

awesome stuff brian, 

a classic argument used to distract attention from the real issue, glad to see you werent sucked in!

Brian's picture

Q. Is the rebel opposition in Syria using retail bought guns? A. (see graph below)Who knows? but chances are they got proper assault weapons and much heavier stuff from sympathetic people in neighboring countries. I doubt Assad allows many weapons-yet they are able to get arms as needed apparently-to take back their country...

Q. Did you know you can build an AK-47 from scratch? A. In Afghanistan many are scratch-built by poor gunsmiths with hand tools. In little mud walled shops in gun markets

Q. Did you know the country with the fewest guns per capita overthrew their tyrannical military government? (I'm still looking for that article on this)

Q. Did the Indian people throw out British rule by peaceful means?

Q. Do the US and UN intend to invade and take over the US mainland by force of arms?

Q. did u notice where Vietnam is?

The United States owns more guns per resident, at about 0.89, than any other nation in the world. The U.S. is almost double the next two highest nations, Serbia and Yemen at about 0.55 and triple major European countries like France and Germany.

Q. You mean there are so many guns that I own 90% of a gun without even buying one? A. Yes Brian, you're a freaking virtual gun owner (and so is every member of your family-and not by choice)

Q. so we don't have enough guns that limiting certain types is workable? A.  ???




hey brian,

i think you will find the rebels in syria are backed by the US and Britain, they couldnt gain enough support so they talked the rebels into doing it, the west supplying thw weapons. i have started to see that whole arab uprising thing the same way, CIA destabilization programs

kevnkar's picture

...of this for a long time but....The weapons allegedly used in the Newtown shooting were purchased legally in a state with some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Chicago eclipsed 500 homicides in 2012, a city with some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. New gun control laws will not ever prevent a single homicidal maniac who has no fear of death from killing whomever he pleases. We live in a culture of violence. Or government condones and perpetrates violence around the world. The state of the world and this country in regards to wholesale murder of innocents worldwide is a direct reflection of the inner dis-ease of the overwhelming majority of human kind. You can not blame the guns, bats, gravity or anything else for the human condition, period. Even the ultra liberal gun control bill author, Dianne Feinstein, is liscensed and carries a concealed weapon. You can not ever convince me that pilitical means will cure the problem no matter how much, or how intelligently you rant.

The pont of Lightwins post was to show, in context, how small of a problem gun violence really is minus the media sensationalism.

exactly, the point of the graph john posted was to say that this is nothing and is being blown out of context. cancer death rates etc have NOTHING to do with this argument. gun control in america, are you serious, as if people cant go interstate, that is a useless and again no doubt gun lobby argument......why do people need those all goes back to overthrowing your government by force......what a joke, the world has changed from colonial days, you dont stand a chance, all your guns will do is justify the governments to come down super hard, if you guys go your goverment militarily you will turn america into iraq.....

guns are fear and for those who fear, there was a texan in a park in canada a few months back, he got scared when a couple of guys appproached him, he was so scared he wrote into a newspaper saying he needed his gun......canadian radio had a field day with him, the guys were handing out pamplets to  a fair.....the texan wanted to shoot them, canada laughed for a week at gun crazy, fear based americans....

Bob07's picture

I recommend that folks exit this string.  It's gone into a negative loop, going nowhere.  A microcosm.

Brian's picture

it's true Bob, no one's going to change their mind but I wanted to examine my own prejudices in confronting what others say. It was really to understand something else- Since I "believe" in human caused global warming the arguments are over for me. All that remains is for you to ask:
Q. Do you risk inaction and kill the human race or do you risk the economy that it might not be human caused?

Since I have children, it's a no brainer. Yet millions have inoculated themselves against drawing the same conclusion (they've been persuaded it's a global conspiracy by 10's of thousands of scientists to raise our taxes). To me, that's not a "decision". Since I see our current inaction as literally killing my children and grandchildren, it's mostly taken my hopes for them. I want to know how to turn this around.

Kevnkar-is that what you take from all I said? It was nothing but ranting? and intellectual? I'm flattered you think I can do 'insane' and 'too brainy' at the same time but you give me too much credit.

Wendy's picture

Q. Is that Vietnam statistic current or 1970+/- ? It's probably a good point in any case - I will agree that there certainly were many factors involved in the US loosing the Vietnam war.

Perhaps this will ease tensions a bit. It came from Fred's e-mail so probably quite a few have seen it but I thought it would be a breath of fresh air here.

This gun violence problem probably isn't as bad as we think it is.

Brian's picture

Good perspective on the big picture. I know others have tried to point this out to me and I don't disagree that overall, it's the shootings impact emotionally on me that has driven my frustration and desire to regulate guns. After that, I look for evidence to back up my viewpoint.

I try to ask myself the right questions though. Like is it important to magnify our actions out of proportion to the incidence of mass shootings? I ask that because we are just human beings with a powerful drive to protect young children from harm and I wonder if we should act to save our own sanity as a people. People are tortured by what happened. Does that require a response? Isn't that the country we want to be? If not, can we live with ourselves as this happens again and again? I can live with the answer we come to together either way, I just want us to decide and not have it fester and linger over our heads anymore. We have to decide how to respond and speak it out loud.

Wendy, that statistic was 2007 I think. Vietnam is a highly controlled state and I'd bet there were more guns than people there when we pulled out. BUT they promptly piled up all the guns as the soldiers went home so they couldn't be used against the regime. I only wanted to say it was interesting-nothing more. They probably had a ton of guns laying around at the start of the American War because they had only just kicked the French out!

Francis's picture

but wanted to say I think guns are for cowards, that the people who use them to kill others are simply tacking on a shit load of karma that they will one day regret, and that it basically boils down to when man learns to govern himself he will have no further need for (organized) government.  Or guns.

That said, and these being trying times, I fully back this marine and his solid statements to Feinstein:

Noa's picture

It surprised me that France ranked fourth in that chart, Brian.  Gun violence is unheard of and in rural France people rarely lock their doors.

Then I remembered how popular hunting is.  You could say that it's the national pasttime.  Any given weekend, the locals are out with their dogs and rifles shooting game.  Cripes, even the major highways have over-passes built to allow migration of game animals, like deer and warthogs.

This gives creedence to the adage, "Guns don't kill; people do."  Of course if you're a deer or a warthog, you're SOL either way.

Brian's picture

I don't really know any stats on it but in the USA I imagine rural gun violence was very very rare. Maybe still is? Francis-that was confusing-I read the marines letter to Feinstein and I want to shake my fist at "The Man" (pardon me Ms. Feinstein -LOL) too-and I feel like I want to always honor a soldier-OK- but I heard a hatred of guns in there too from you?  And my dad was a marine and he HATES guns.

I just saw this video of a storm chaser who tracked the EF5 that hit Joplin MO in 2011 and he is excited in his car with his girl and they are chasing it-scared but ((spoiler alert here-better to watch it)) they can run from it-then he turns into the place where it's leveled freaking everything and he has to get out of his car because he hears someone crying and then he approaches a flipped car and a shaking dog emerges-it seems maybe someone is dead inside, and he quickly gets drawn deep into the horror of it because he can not just leave when people are trapped under their damned houses. He starts trying to help and then he starts crying and it really hits me and I start to cry too.
.....I feel like we might not do anything to stop these mass murders until we all feel this kind of personal tragedy directly. I hate to say it but if a police video was released today from a helmet mounted camera  of a 1st responder to the Newtown shooting and we all saw those children's bodies blown apart everyone would just shut their pie holes and assault weapons would be banned overnight.

If we don't act to change something real and tangible will we hate ourselves for our loss of humanity?  People want to say we are becoming desensitized to violence. Maybe this is how it happens. If we don't act, only reacting emotionally-do we hate ourselves for not acting? Will we die inside? Is it time to face fear and act anyway?

Francis's picture

Sorry he had to learn the hard way.  I remember when Desert Storm was about to begin and they were talking about reinstating the draft (I was 21 and that was the first age to go at the time) and I just looked at my dad and said, "well, looks like I'm off to Canada."  Luckily that didn't happen.  Let me just say I hear your pain Brian.  It is awful and it is a wake up call, but so is all the crap that's been taking place around the rest of the world since time began that our selective (bought) media and history chooses not to show or tell us.  Twenty-something children here,,, how many more everywhere else, whole tribes and races wiped out, that's the awful part and it's about time that we learn the truth, and then do something about it.  At this point, from my perspective, to act because of Sandy Hook is simply the reaction predicted.  Much is still hazy in the land of truth, and we must clear our minds and hearts before we have the vision to do anything productive.  Then, and only then, will action have a lasting value.  Don't mean to preach brother, this shit is getting to all of us.  Hang in there and much love, F

Brian's picture

Thanks for the kind words but "and we must clear our minds and hearts before we have the vision to do anything productive" sounds like many other astonishing statements I've encountered here.
I love you guys but I don't think Ghandi or MLK Jr. would have felt that way. They were about acting up NOW to correct injustice and bad conditions. (and sad they were both killed by gunmen eh?)

-Better to wait until we grow up spiritually before banning semiautomatic rifles and big ammo clips? What?

-Better not to act because there is violence all over the world?   Seriously? That isn't even rational.

That's like delaying seatbelts because you're waiting for people to all be better drivers.

 I can only conclude that you are scared. That you're scared you won't be able to either keep a gun you have now or buy a gun in the future, but I'm not advocating banning all guns-just saying lets ban semiautomatic rifles and big ammo clips! Stand up.


Francis's picture

not sure I would be human if I didn't.  Fear about guns, no, could care less about guns.  I heard someone on coast to coast last night say that what the 2nd ammendment was originally written in to do was to make sure that the standing militias, honest everyday citizens that would coalesce in the case of government tyranny, would be certain to have exactly the same weapons as were used in the armies and other armed forces of the present day so that they could stand a chance against them.  In other words, those exact semiautomatic rifles and big ammo clips that you want to ban, that are probably being used by our armies today (don't quote me, I really don't pursue such knowledge), may in fact be what is needed for the citizens to stop a tyrannical government hell-bent on control.

Did Gandhi act out of anger?  Did he react to provocation?  I think Gandhi and MLK felt exactly the way I do and got right in their hearts before they did anything and that's why their actions had such a lasting impact.  Gandhi fasted, for God's sake, to make the people stop rioting and reacting in anger.  Now that's a spiritually awake and aware individual who was definitely right in his heart.  

If seven thousand people meditating together can drastically reduce violence then I believe that is the avenue that needs much more attention and research and action.  To most people that probably sounds like weakness, a bunch of peaceful pacifists sitting around with wishful thinking ("bleeding heart liberals" or my favorite, "asshole hippies from outer space"), but then to them sending armies around the world killing innocent people is a sign of strength, and then again, the real science behind such a practice has been suppressed our entire lives and very few people know the real strength that lies dormant within each and every individual.  If we can tap into that, act out of love instead of react out of fear, then we're onto something. 

To me, yes, I would say definitely "better to wait until we grow up spiritually before banning semiautomatic rifles and big ammo clips"  But then, in this country as things stand today, I would never condone banning those weapons.  They're so many holes in these "lone gunman" stories I don't think we should react at all until we get the truth of what really happened.  Isn't it the mainstream media, hell, even the hollywood actors, that are "demanding a plan" to ban these same weapons?  Why in the world are we listening to their nonsense, scripted, corporate, b.s. company line?  Isn't this the exact reason we all gravitated to the gathering spot in the first place, because we were all sick of the lies and deceit taking place all around us? 

Well, I appreciate your heated response Brian.  I don't want to see anymore death either. 

Brian's picture

That was very satisfying to understand where you're coming from. I see you're not advocating no action-just correct action. I want organized meditations to reduce crime and violence BTW. No one seems to get where I'm coming from.

I started to try to explain why I am frustrated by the vagueness of reactions but it won't help anyone or help me to further this point so I'll stop. I had hoped the outcome would be for people to not sweep this under the carpet.

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