Shock Waves

Overall, I feel that more people are waking up... at least in my corner of the world.  In some of the most surprising places, I keep meeting people who know bits and pieces about the world domination agenda.  Even some of my old friends surprise me with a video they've been watching or a discussion group they're attending on fringe topics that heretofore were only the domain of the staunchest "conspiracy theorists".

On the other hand, many conspiracies "theories" have been exposed as truth without so much as a nod from the masses.  I think the figure is close to 40% of Americans who question the official 911 Report, so where is the collective outrage?  And when the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission convicted thugs like George W., Cheney, and Rumsfeld of war crimes in 2012, why was there no public lynching?  I doubt most folks were paying attention.  I can't help wondering if the daily cocktail of fluoride, chemtrail, GMO food, dirty electricity, EMF/scalar wave ad nauseam is sedating people beyond reason.

At the same time that more people are waking up, more people seem to be hopelessly asleep.

Hi!

    Maybe if everyone had the sme level of realization at the same time it might be too much of a "Tsunami".  A calmer incoming tide might be best for all.  In spite of all the propaganda and physical pollutants people are steadily achieving clarity.  It's all good!

I agree, many are asleep Noa. I meet them each day. Cookie cutter homes decorated exactly the same, playing Fox news constantly as their life's accompaniment and 'want' to elect Jeb Bush as president. Short memory eh?

In an opinion piece about 'ol Jeb running. Paraphrasing:  "It hasn't been that long, you know. We aren't talking about the great-grandson of a catastrophically blundering, buffoonish president that devastated the nation's economy, presided over a horrific terrorist attack, lied outright in order to lodge America into a second war ....... We're talking about installing that guy's brother, .... having a third Bush become president, and having three of the last five presidents be people who all slept in the same house,....."

We are making it up as we go along. Most important are our relationships and how we feel and treat one another. The rest is all smoke and mirrors. Time and space are illusory reference points to assist us in relating, until we no longer have need of such parameters. Your environment is your lunch. Align thyself and the entire universe rejoices. There is no right and wrong, no good and bad. This is the main hang-up of humans and the old bicameral mind. Have to get all the parts communicating properly and regularly. Balance, harmony and wholeness inevitably follow. Love to you all in this "new year". ;)

I don't understand how anyone can believe there is no right and wrong or good and bad.  I think this idea comes from a co-opted new age disinformation campaign.  It makes sense that if someone's agenda is to do horrific things to people and the planet, you'd promote the idea of nothing being wrong or evil.  I think people who buy into this idea have lost or suppressed their innate moral compass.

Those who can't distinguish between right and wrong are in real danger of being manipulated by the illuminati luciferian agenda.  Those who just go along with whatever may come down the pike allow evil things like pollution, greed, and war to continue unabated. 

I'm not a Christian, but I believe the words of Jesus Christ are some of purest teachings about living in accordance to the laws of Creation.  Humans on this planet have been given the freewill to choose. The darker side of life exists to show us what we don't want.  When we don't use our freewill to choose, our silence is consent for the -1% to make global decisions for us, affecting the entire planet.  Thankfully, many people are consciously choosing goodness, light, and creative life force over the opposing forces of darkness, evil and destruction.  This is where our true power lies.  It is when we collectively claim a joy-filled, abundant life for ourselves rather than the corrupt system that has been thrust upon us that we have the power to create heaven on earth.

Do not believe anything
because it is said by an authority,
or if it is said to come from angels,
or from gods,
or from an inspired source.

Believe it only if you have explored it
in your own heart
and mind and body
and found it to be true.

Work out your own path,
through diligence.

Gautama Buddha

I don't think anyone would deny the good and bad in the world we have today. This world is, however, a distorted, "consented to" world, manifested through unknowing and false beliefs. The more we discover and learn, the less distorted that world can become. I think without the distortion, it becomes very clear that life (ultimately) is most definitely NOT about right and wrong and any focused attention on such a struggle, only propagates more of the same. The quickest way to a state beyond this never ending battle between good and evil, is through every individuals acts that are stimulated or brought about as a result of compassionate intentions. The dark side may be around to give us contrast, but it won't be like that forever. Eventually we outgrow the diapers and stop poopin in our pants. No one holds it against us because of that nasty, nasty thing we used to let happen in our pants and anyone in their right mind would never point and holler at a baby as being bad or evil for having shit all over itself.

This shit is dynamic people. It's fluid and the form of what is changes continually and consistently. Be careful not to get stuck in the old ways, no matter how well it has served in the past. Silence is not a "bad" thing sometimes. Hahaha, SEE?, it's not always about that.

P.S. Bush+Obama=Same-Thing. Lets stop arguing about politics (rooting for or against politicians) and work to get rid of this system all together.

Exactly the point. SICK of people being contrary, just because they don't like someone. And their minds not being open enough to respect other points of view. How sad. And then they might argue the same from where they're at. Feels like grade school still.

And that whole good vs evil thing. What an outdated yet simple way to keep people disempowered. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the news media, because I choose to create my reality rather than feast upon the dominant paradigm. It's all about belief, people, and if you swallow that hook, line and sinker, then you're caught.

On the other hand, the conscious and proactive use of things like "prana" or "orgone" (yes, I am VERY familiar with that term and have read and studied several of Reich's works not outlawed or burned) can shift the whole mess. Starting with oneself and one's own backyard. Good luck applying what you've discovered and practicing what you preach. It's an uphill battle with that boulder, until you reach the top...

Amen Starmonkey and GG, Amen, Amen, A-Fucking-men!!!!

We are almost at the place in at the G-spot where all allow each other to have their say without it being judged....  Almost.....

Ohhhh the fine line between gratuitous judgment and geniune debate of thoughts and ideas....

There are no "sides" and there SHOULD be no lines drawn in the proverbial sand. Back-patting and ego pumping... can go the "way of the dodo" for all the good it does us. And I'm all for hearing or reading WHATEVER anyone wants to post (although I've mainly been checking in from my phone, so I don't really watch videos or follow links...), but the other part of that is DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Political activism is "nice sentiments and hollow words". Some of US here are forgetting the other side of the transformation course. Let's get into some more TRANSFORMATION, folks. I'm ALL ABOUT IT. Love brothers and sisters and anyone in between

Rebellions have not worked, or have worked in favor of the alleged/imagined enemy.  Peaceful noncompliance always reminds me of dear Maude in the movie....

       Gale said it simply in the first Hunger Games flick,,,,"What if nobody watched?"

Or created our own "games"...

I'm tired of playing their games.

In, oh, so many ways

or Bill Murray in Groundhog Day, "I'm not gonna live by their rules anymore!"

wouldn't it be a kick to ask Bill who "their" is....

That statement could extend to untold levels. Even approaches cosmic proportions when ONE is ready. Control and conditioning go as far as our very incarnation and astrological influences. When one gets to KNOW THYSELF more and more, those boundaries are less imperious, and one can get to truly understanding the universe at large. 

Sort of like in the old WingMakers philosophy (remember that one?). There are only two (one) entities... you and the universe. Chew on that one for awhile. Or put that in your pipe and smoke it. ... ;)

I love how there can be limitless ways of looking at and describing the same thing, and how they can all be true. It reminds me of the parable of the blind wise men describing the elephant by touch, each feeling a different part of the animal. Should I cheer on Noa for describing the trunk, or Chris for describing the legs, or Gary the tail (or should I say the shit?) ;-P

I think that maybe reality can only ever be experienced subjectively. What is perceived by the life force in this body as "reality" is a direct reflection of the mental conditioning, beliefs, knowledge, memory, sensations, and on and on. Take all that way, and perhaps this life force would be indistinguishable from another - perhaps when it comes to the root life force, even the sense of separateness of one from another is just another conditioned idea.

Love, Trish

How quick some folks are to judge others for not sharing the same opinion as them.  And how sad it is that all thoughts are not welcome here. 

For the record, my observations have nothing to do with whether I like someone or not.  There are just some things stated here as if they are fact that don't feel right to me and I'm exercising my freewill to say so (as politely as possible).  I've looked at both sides of this issue and I'm open to changing my mind if I become convinced otherwise.  I don't mean to offend anyone by expressing my views... contrary or not. 

That's what free speech is for.  Intellectual discussion allows for diverse opinions and, if one is mature and open-minded, sometimes it leads to evolution of thought.

Dear Noa,

From my perspective, I thought Chris's (starmonkey's) comment was in direct reply to Gary's comment about politics and how people can get so passionate about Bush vs. Obama or whatever the dichotomy that they lose sight of the similarities of both sides' values. I didn't feel like they were judging you, though I could see how you could interpret it that way. I also don't want to speak for them, so guys, feel free to clarify!

In the end, aren't you all saying the same thing, but in slightly different ways? Chris and others are saying not to get caught up in dichotomies and us vs. them, good vs. bad thinking. Noa, you're saying not to get so passive that you become essentially dead inside and allow others to lead and dictate your life. It seems to me that the shared middle message is: be fully aware and present as you live your life, courageously and wholeheartedly, guided not by outside influences, but from within. As Chris says, we need to live the transformation, which I think provides a balance for a non-dualistic perspective. Non-dualism can easily turn into nihilism if it's only mental and not "lived out". And I think that might be what you're trying to warn people about, Noa - a fatalistic kind of attitude that can develop - "screw it, it's all an illusion anyways, why should I even bother".

I also agree with you that there is goodness and purity and peace and stillness, but from my "inner knowing" I would say that this has no opposite - what we call evil could also be called ignorance or sleep or distortion or cloudiness. I like the idea that we all are that pure essential goodness, or angels, or whatever name you might have, but each of us has varying layers and degrees of distortions and sleepiness and forgetfulness. Part of the point may be to wake up and remove the distortions, and to help others do the same. And to dwell in the joy of re-discovering oneself and the beauty that can be found in each moment if we are but awake to it.

Love, Trish

Thanks for playing the middle ground, Trish. Maybe there should be a forum on here where we can just "have at each other", since it doesn't seem to work to respond directly toward one another if it's a contradiction. It does help with clarity if one fully understands the English language, and doesn't read things into it. Like their viewpoint superimposed over what somebody else is trying to say. It also helps clear things up when going back and CAREFULLY reading over the entire post, to see where the flash fire started. When one starts throwing "verbal" stones, one shouldn't be surprised when return fire occurs. A nice FRIENDLY volley would be more to everyone's liking, I'm sure. Tomorrow I will post something friendly, to help illustrate the point I'm trying to make. 

Thanks again, Trish and Chris Bowers for being good mediators.

Christopher out

Hi starmonkey,

Many moons ago, when this place had lots of people, they were spending heaps of time and effort developing the site. A group of us were trialing separate portals for things like you just described, we spoke of one for conflict resolution......portals in portals....it was cool and we even had live chat.....the place was rockin...and then  the multiple portal thing started a fight...everyone jumped in.....I think one post had 72 comments in about 12 hours.......in the aftermath almost everyone left and the site was scaled back to this as it has remained ever since.....was dissappoiting, you would have enjoyed the first year here...so many Cool people ......some awesome debates, perspectives and in the end lessons... But people arguing has always existed here.....

My view of the good bad thing.....

It is as true to say that there is no good and evil as it is to say that there is....this reality is layer upon layer, we are spiritual beings in mortal form....nothing is one fixed thing...there is always more than one truth depending on where your perspective is, are you looking from earth or from the heavens....cause you will often pull different answers depending on the perspective your going with....tomato....tomatoe...people will argue about it.....so is that good or bad.....or.....

I don't know what everyone else is talking about. All I was ever trying to convey was my experience in consciously trying to expand my place of awareness and trying to truly understand something that is, I believe, counter intuitive. I think I understand it now. That is, finding a way to "believe" that there really is no good and evil. Very gradually I have been able to realize scenarios that, understandably enough, represent  some "good and evil" plot to one mind-set. Turns out when the whole story is considered, it's not about that in any way except what that mind-set imagined through preconceived notions. Preconceived notions that prove to be incorrect and so, couldn't have even been considered by the other mind-set.

On the other hand, I have never been on the wrong end of a fish hook either, so ... I mean, imagine getting yanked out of Micky D's to realize you'd just been pulled outta some kind of pond. Talk about stretching consciousness.

I digress ...

Good comment Jeremy.

I went back to see if I missed something and I didn't. In going from Monkey man's comment about all perspectives valid, good and evil, etc, to the very next comment, made by Noa, this thread definately takes a harsh turn. I don't understand that. Does anyone else see it?

I respect all viewpoints. Although I sort of get riled up by the more narrow ones. I do notice the "debate" gets a little more lively when I stir things up a bit. Glad to wake it up some from the usual citing of the media. Mainstream or popular or not or whatever. And getting defensive regarding"conspiracies" or whatever is pretty silly, since EVERYTHING is open for debate and/or discussion. There are no ultimates and ANYTHING gleaned through the media is dubious at best, since one can't use multiple senses for discernment. I like a GOOD story as much as the next person, so I actually get most of my "truth" from "fiction". Otherwise, take it to the next level and read some Peter Moon. It's got aliens and pirates and Nazis and time travel and magic and all sorts of good stuff in a big old fat mystery sandwich. More manana

I like that: "I believe all and nothing." Being a Colorado guy, I'm guessing you're familiar with South Park - what you said reminded me of an episode where Kyle starts reading philosophy and realizes everything is an illusion, and disappears. His disembodied voice is heard, saying, "This is reality! I am everywhere and nowhere. I am nothing and everything." He then reappears to give the moral of the episode, "Yeah. But you know, I've learned something today. You see, the basis of all reasoning is the mind's awareness of itself. What we think, the external objects we perceive, are all like actors that come on and off stage. But our conscioousness, the stage itself, is always present to us." :-)

You sure do like to stir things up a bit! I hope you notice the irony in your post where you talk about showing kindness while poking the fire and essentially insinuating that Noa doesn't understand English (and she's mentioned she's an English major). Dude, maybe you should re-read your posts too. So you get riled up with Noa's viewpoint - that's cool, but it's not her fault - that's something within you that you can look at. She said she was trying to share her viewpoint politely, so her intention wasn't to throw stones. 

If you're interested in having your mind blown, try doing "The Work" by Byron Katie. When I'm at a computer (not my phone), I'll post a link.

Peace,

Trish

Am I the only one who thinks I'm funny?

Trish may be acting as a mediator here, but what she's saying is beyond mediation.  She's talking about waking up in the moment, "living it out".  That's beyond dualistic notions like good vs bad, and there is good and bad vs there is no good and bad.  These are all just ideas, and they catch us up every time when we're invested in one idea or another; this string is an example. 

Gary, you addressed the relativity of ideas and points of view in your post here at 8:52, and Jez in yours at 8:45.  If we really get that, what is there to argue or be offended about?  Everyone sees things from a different vantage point, that's all.  But in truth we don't really get it, even though in talking about it we may think we do, because there's still conflict.  But that's okay, we're learning (or un-learning) slowly.  Patience with ourselves and each other, especially when we see that we've lost patience.  It could be said that nearly all of human history is the playing out of people's commitment to (belief in) ideas and ideologies, and what a conflict-ridden drama that has been.  And... history is us, right here. 

Nothing is going to put an end to conflict on any level but the ease of an open heart, because that has to do with being, which is totally beyond ideas.  And arriving there is at least a lifetime's work.  I'm not truly "there" yet, but I've sure learned to walk very warily (aware-ly) in the minefield of my own thinking.  Try it; at the very least it's impossible to be bored turning your "eyeballs" inward. 

Thought is an indispensable tool in this world, and we may even need to use it to establish provisional truths (i.e., not to take them too seriously) so we can move forward with our lives, but to grant them the power to establish any kind of permanent truth... well, that's planting mines in the field.  There's a difference between having a good time playing with ideas in a discussion, and having the discussion turn into an argument.  And when we're arguing, we've believed our thoughts to be true and someone else's to be untrue.  How many times are we going to do this?  Ain't worth it, for sure.

If each one of us knew that he/she and one another would all die tomorrow, there would be no arguments.  Intead there'd be just open hearts.  What other kind of Transformation are we looking for?

I think you're funny, Gary! I loved the diapers analogy. I think that's what it's all about - having compassion for your own and everyone else's mess because we just don't know any better. 

I think you're funny, Gary! I loved the diapers analogy. I think that's what it's all about - having compassion for your own and everyone else's mess because we just don't know any better. 

As we enter the new year, and as I read all the posts above, my mantra/prayer has become ...I AM, and as I AM, I am calling on all the powers at my disposal in this and every moment, both conscious and unconscious, to dissolve all of my illusions.

Peace be, May free thought and free love flow through us all in this portal and out into the whole of the world.

Very very busy now, so excuse me if I post little (I still attempt to catch up with the reading here daily), you all remain in my heart and in my prayers as we move our world forward.  Blessings.             kristyne

I hear all of these soundless noises everyone is making. And they are all valid. Sometimes pain and suffering are necessary for growth, but not always. Sometimes shit has to be shaken right out of that diaper to cross the threshold. I'm for some growth and moving forward and not replaying these same dramas over and over and over...

So, Noa, despite your DIRECT attack on me which started this most recent "debate", I will heretofore be adopting a more indirect method of interaction on this site. Everyone read the sixth post on this blog if you have any questions. And DO mind the underlying tone. And then read the Buddha quote at the end of it. And I hope we ALL can take it to heart

just to keep up the discussion on good and evil from a real events perspective, the two brothers that recently killed several people at the French newspaper, they were positive that they were doing the good and right thing from their perspective.  Were and are they evil or good?

Any meaning we invest concerning the notion of good and evil is obviously a personal one.  The personal notion applied to the masses becomes a religion.  And religion has been the cause of much suffering and has yet to become a bonified valid answer - goes right back to being personal the minute someones says, "Well its become an answer for me!"  Nothing empirically valid there, just a strong personal belief that makes one feel good about what they want to think and hope is true...  Strong desire doesn't make it true - just makes one polarized toward a pet notion, an adopted belief...

The whole good and evil religious polarity thing has been responsible for so much death and destruction throughout human history.  so much interesting stuff to discuss concerning this good and evil issue, the cause of so much polarization, how nature shows us that the unpolarized center, like the Vesica Piscis or the center of a star, is the road less traveled, but very likely the only road that actually gets anyone anywhere....

and even then, wherever you go, there you are - puff, puff, pass...

"I don't understand how anyone can believe there is no right and wrong or good and bad.  I think this idea comes from a co-opted new age disinformation campaign.  It makes sense that if someone's agenda is to do horrific things to people and the planet, you'd promote the idea of nothing being wrong or evil.  I think people who buy into this idea have lost or suppressed their innate moral compass."

"Those who can't distinguish between right and wrong are in real danger of being manipulated by the illuminati luciferian agenda.  Those who just go along with whatever may come down the pike allow evil things like pollution, greed, and war to continue unabated."

The next time Noa posted it was to voice her being quite upset (again) with what she had read following her own extremely judgmental post shot across the bow of Starmonkey.  Nothing had been said that comes close to how harsh and judgemental she'd just been in her own previous post, but somehow in your mind Noa, your post is simply free speech while others are being judgmental and mean towards you.  Why not afford others the same rights you are affording yourself Noa?  Are you somehow better than all of us and should be afforded more free speech rights because what you have to say is so much more important and meaningful?

This is so blatantly obvious and is such an old and tired human ego BS story that has been repeated as many times as there are stars in the Universe.  Noa its so simple, if you don't want someone coming back at you with something you don't like to hear, stop doing the same old tired shit yourself!  And please stop acting like the self appointed morality police - we are all big girls and boys here and do not require any morality police.

We all get enough of that nonsense from the disingenuous Republicans and Fox News, LOL

Noa, you once spoke of wishing that you had a safe place to post your thoughts.  How do you think Starmonkey must have felt after reading your post that so obviously downplayed his moral compass?  IF that had happened to you, someone alluding to your lack of morality, how would you have felt???

I absolutely hate this shit Noa, this kind of confrontation.  Makes me shake and feel disturbed.  You might think I like it or that I am singling you out.  A:  I do not like it, and B:  I am not singling you out - it just happens to be you that keeps on pulling this same old tired disingenuous nonsense, acting like the poor offended one when it is so clearly you that was equally offensive or more offensive.

Be respectful of others and you will see the same returned.  Pull this hypocritical disingenuous nonsense and it will continue to be same shit, different day....  keep using left brain rationalization to support your "lone victim" position and you will continue to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.  The real question is, do you want a safe place for everybody, or just you.  The first makes you equally responsible for the creation of such an environment, and the 2nd requires everyone else to create the safe place for you.

You like biblical quotes?  How bout this one: "There is nothing new under the sun"

Shock Waves sure turned out to be a perfect title for this forum post....

In the end what it all boils down to for me is the human ego has such a strong tendency to take itself far too seriously, and that in almost complete ignorance given how little info we actually have to decide what we think all of this, the Cosmos, concept of good and evil, what is the original intent of "First Source, is there an original intent, is there a "First Source"???  I suspect there is, but that's not empirical evidence.

Saying we know what all this is, what anything is for that matter, is complete arrogance based in almost complete ignorance.  We are here for 75 - 100 years and the Universe is at least 14 billion years old, not to mention how utterly limited our senses truly are.  From our senses vantage point it is complete and utter illusion, given the phenomenal info we receive from our senses vs. what we actually know from a physics perspective...  and what the hell is dark matter?  rarified densities and the possibility that so many non physical levels of being, conscious being, are out there somewhere?  I suspect, but I don't know for sure.  It's fun to talk about, but that doesn't mean any of its true just because I want it to be true.

To say "I don't know" is the beginning of wisdom I think....  But I don't know for sure, LOL

the first thing I thought when I heard about the shootings was Mossad.  France had just recently been involved with conflict resolution concerning the Palestinian issue, not that there idea of a resolution did much for the Palestinians.

But maybe its enough to just be involved with the issue and you get Mossad creating another false flag attack to keep the world mad at and fearful of "Muslims".  RT news mentioned that two brothers had been identified, but can I trust what I hear on the news anymore?

reporting is suspect at the very least....

Why is my point of view less valid than anyone elses?  Why are some people's "authority" on a subject beyond question?

All I said was I don't understand Starmonkey's point of view and I stated my opinions about it.  I'm not attacking anyone; it just doesn't make sense to me.  Instead of putting me down for questioning your point of view, why don't you give me some reasons why you think there is no right or wrong or good or bad in this world?  Why can't we have an intelligent discussion instead of resorting to character attacks?  Your point of view makes no sense to me.  I'm sorry if it offends you to be contradicted, but I can point to countless examples to the contrary.

Some examples of bad and wrong:

Hitler's holocaust, war, abuse, neglect, starvation, poverty, genocide.  I don't understand how anyone can deny these things are bad.  That's why I say one must be lacking a moral compass.  I don't mean to attack anyone; I just don't get your point of view.  Please explain it to me.

Now, here are some examples of right and good:

Living according to the laws of the Creator, living in harmony with nature, expressing love, joy, peace, tranquility.   If one is in tune with one's senses and intuition, one can feel the rightness or wrongness of things... again, it's the moral compass that millions of people are guided by each day.  How can anyone deny this?  I'd really like to understand.

A final thought here.  Whenever I have offended anyone with my comments, I have apologized (even though I've never intended to offend anyone here).  It's only right when you injury someone (even unintentionally) to make amends.  But despite some vicious attacks on my character (in prior days), no such apology has been extended to me. I'm just supposed to suck it up as if I have no feelings.

Think on that guys.  You're applying a double standard.

Hi Noa,

What they are referring to is that you basically called Starmonkey immoral and ignorant....Chris highlighted the section..

Expressing your view should not need you to make reference to the person expressing their views....thats how the "bad" guys do it, discredit the person to silence their message....

Do you believe Starmonkey is immoral and ignorant for believing what he does on good bad?

Yes, Noa. Several times I have felt directly attacked by you. And, I'm sorry to say, have responded to such in kind. Not a very "Christian" thing to do, I know. I do not do so well with tyranny and aggression. And you have NEVER apologized to me for your blatant attacks. I have tried to be kind to you (it's been awhile), but you don't take me seriously, so that fails as well. I have also tried to avoid you and your posts, but that wasn't serving the greater dynamic of the site either. So be it. 

When someone is SO angry at the world that they speak of collective outrage and lynching... You've obviously missed the result of most rebellions and related. More bloodshed. Maybe if there's even ONE thing we can all agree upon here at the gathering spot, it's that we're sick of the unnecessary killing and bloodshed rampant across the planet. It doesn't really do any good to talk about it all the time, either, as that just perpetuates those feelings of despair and disempowerment. 

But, as a moth to a flame, thou art drawn. 

PEACE be with you

Thank you for that carefully-worded comment, Jez.  I know you and I have had our differences in the past and I appreciate your avoiding mud-slinging.

In answer to your question... no, absolutely not; I am not saying that Starmonkey is immoral, but I think that the statement, There is no good or bad/right or wrong is unfounded, and even possibly dangerous.  I've already stated my reasons why and I'd like to know why Starmonkey thinks his statement is true.  I'm not trying to challenge anyone; I'm just trying to understand what seems to me to be an illogical train of thought.

Please allow me to explain what I meant by the "moral compass" comment.   A compass is an instrument that measures degrees between polar opposites.  Therefore, if someone denies the existence of right and wrong or can't distinguish between good and bad, there's something amiss with his or her moral compass.  (Agree or disagree if you like; that's just the way I see it.)

Before anyone accuses me of being a prude, let me say that, whenever possible, I buck the system when it interferes with my living as a free and independent person.  I don't judge anyone for living as they like, as long as they're not intentionally harming God's creations in the process.

I don't think everyone who believes as Starmonkey does on this issue is immoral, but perhaps they may be misinformed or have been mislead somewhere along the way.

I feel it's important to recognize that certain horrific acts (like pedophilia) are wrong, and that other qualities (like honesty) are morally right.  Yes, I know that there are times when honesty is not always the best policy, but only the depraved would advocate pedophilia.  If we can't distinguish between acts that are good or bad, humanity is in real trouble.

I am old enough to remember when TV shows like "Leave it to Beaver" were the norm.  These shows exemplified the best in human behavior, and it was something to strive for.  When I was in grade school, we were taught right from wrong by our teachers until someone came along and legislated it out of the classroom.  Over time, we've lost our moral fiber as a society, and I would argue that it has been by design.  When 5 corporations control 80% of the media, the messages we're being fed are often misleading, manipulative, and not in our best interest.  I think it's safe to say that if you're watching television these days, you're being brainwashed. (And that's only one medium in which our minds are being melded.)

And so I question whether Starmonkey has a basis for his beliefs or he is just regurgitating some words he heard somewhere.  I'm open to examining his point of view if there's any substance behind it, but I would caution everyone not to embrace some idea before giving it their personal litmus test.  We're all born with this intuitive sensibility, so if yours is rusty it can be re-honed. 

I didn't intend to get on a soapbox about all this, but I do think it's important for each of us to have values and principles.  Otherwise...

"Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything."

Hi noa,

The no good no bad thing is a spiritual concept....I guess really it is about energy....everything is made of energy and energy is energy....it's not good or bad.......the good bad only exists here in this dualistic existence.....we create it....but from the higher spiritual perspective there really is no good or bad....a mass murderer will not be punished in the spirit world...

you might also consider the idea that the world is a stage, we are actors, come down play our parts and go....yes that could imply nothing matters but you may find that that is not how it works out....we are here part of the show, we are living.....it's a most precious thing......and no one gets it wrong, your version of living is as valid as anyone else's....from a spiritual perspective...

Starmonkey didn't make it up, I'm sure you can find stuff on the net.....I found the concept helped me to appreciate exactly how perfect everything is...

attn getters here at the spot is the problem and EGOS    Can't we all just get along and we  wonder why there is war ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Good energy is where it is at . Make it and live in it .

  everybody is always barkin at each other.

Thank you, Jez. That was beautifully said.  I understand this concept within the spiritual context. 

And while physical reality is made up of mostly empty space, there's no denying how physically real this physical realm is.  So when people make blanket statements about how this is all an illusion, I wonder if they've ever suffered from chronic pain or tried to walk through a wall.

I take issue with those who say there is no right or wrong on a planet where innocent people are suffering at the hands of greedy psychopaths.

For better or worse, we live in a 3-D world and are subject to its natural laws.  I believe we came here to experience it in this way for a reason.  Denying its physicality doesn't help matters... in my opinion.

I'm just now reading your post, Starmonkey, as we were writing at the same moment in time. 

I believe that I have explained to you many times that I have never meant to attack you, and I have apologized to you just as many times on this forum.  You need only look in this thread to my post entitled, "I don't understand" to see one of them.

If that's not enough for you, I'll say it again.  I'm sorry if I offended you.  I have never meant to attack you. I will accept your above post in lieu of a real apology for your transgressions against me.  As long as you continue to hold a grudge, you will be hyper-sensitive to everything I say, ever on the lookout for something that might be disagreeable.  So please, bury the hachet and give me the benefit of the doubt. 

If you can forget the past for a moment, you may see how much I've grown, and softened.  It's thanks in part to painful exchanges like this one.  I've taken your comments to heart.

It's okay to disagree.

It's okay to question.

It's not personal.

It is my nature to speak my mind and not everyone is going to like what I have to say.  But you have no idea how carefully I word my phrases in order not to offend anyone.  I am not all those ugly things that you say. I think that if you really look deep within your heart of hearts, the "offense" you are feeling has more to do with you and less to do with me, than you may realize.  

I think it's rather telling that this discussion has been deflected towards my character and away from my initial question - which is why you think there is no wrong or right/good or bad.  I wonder if you have an answer.

"Good and evil" is a mind concept. The mind is not 3D. It's not physical. At least in this world. The acts you speak of are physical. The determined definition or explanation of those acts is non physical. Non-physical is open for interpretation. Interpretation is dependent on knowledge and beliefs. Knowledge can be incomplete and beliefs can be incorrect.

Thanks to everyone here for doing your best to be respectful of each other. I know it's not easy sometimes. I also feel that good and bad is a matter of perspective.

In this subjective physical world in which we live, clearly some things are subjectively bad. If I see someone about to murder or rape someone else, I will deem that behavior as bad and do my very best to take action and stop it. Yet from a metaperspective, I also have no doubt that everything - literally everything - somehow serves a great purpose. And everyone in the depths of their heart and soul is a beautiful divine being. From this perspective, there is no ultimate bad or good.

I choose to honor the subjective bad and good of this physical realm by taking action to stop destructive behavior. Yet even as I take action, I also choose to honor the absolute divinity of those who are being destructive. I choose to embrace both the subjective good and bad and the metaphysical viewpoint where this is all a divine comedy we are co-creating where everything serves a greater purpose.

The question for me is this: When we evaluate someone's behavior as subjectively bad, can we still hold the mega-perspective that this person in their core is a beautiful being who deep in their heart just wants to love and be loved? Can we evaluate a person's behavior as disempowering or "bad" and do our best to stop it, while at the same time choosing to see and honor their core essence that is beautiful and divine?

And can we here all treat each other that way here in this forum, even when we disagree? When someone appears to attack someone else with unkind words, can we do our best to help that person understand what they are doing while still honoring and loving that person as one who is so worthy of love? Thank you so much to the many here who I know hold and support this perspective.

I see challenges like this as potent opportunities for growth. One of my very favorite sayings is "recognize fear as an invitation to growth." May your new year be filled with rich and meaningful challenges which are not too overwhelming. Happy new year and much love to all here on the Gathering Spot.

With abundant love, joy, and compassion,
Fred

Thank you Fred and Bob, I've been trying to figure out how to put my thoughts on this to words, but I feel like both of you have expressed my perspective beautifully. Thank you everyone too for this discussion and I honour you and your unique perspectives!

Love, Trish

... You pretty much summed up everything people were saying, honoring all views, and keeping it all within the larger view.  There's room in the larger view for literally everything that happens and everyone who "happens" it.  And that doesn't mean that we don't feel the suffering of the world and act to alleviate it; it just means that we needn't get lost in it.

I think it was Saint Theresa who said something like, "Contrary to appearances, everything is exactly as it should be."  How do we wrap our minds around that statement, given the injustice and horrors in this world that we know so well?  We can't, because it was made from the larger view, the spritual perspective, which is beyond our thinking minds.  Probably most of us find that perspective unacceptable because it seems to support the idea that nothing matters (as you have pointed out, Noa).  But that's only half of it, because at the same time, everything matters because we're here to find and live out spiritual truth from moment to moment and from day to day.  Trouble is that our minds, our ideas, can't put these two seeming opposites together.  Is there something in us that can put them together?  Well...

Noa appropriately quoted the Buddha in the 6th post here.  Here's another quote from him that addresses this very quandry, and it is at the very heart of his teaching:  "Existence, nonexistence -- I accept neither.  I take the Middle Way." 

This is deceptively simple, but it's a fully-packed statement.  Based on teachings received on this and my own understanding, I'm going to (presumptuosly perhaps) attempt to unpack it in terms of our discussion here. 

So, to that end, here is an attempted restatement of the Buddha's core teaching: "The view that there is good and bad and that everything matters, the view that there is no good and no bad and that nothing matters -- I accept neither, for these are only formulations of thought.  I take the direct way of the opened heart-mind, which is my sole compass as I live from moment to moment in this unfathomable world." 

Such a great bunch of posts. Everyone is saying awesome things, and so many! I echo the sentiments of our newest member (way up above), that given the nature of our shared illusion and the factor of "critical mass", we ALL have to agree on the scenario for it to be accepted and experienced. Hence, if we are all agreeing upon the "global terror" experience, that is what we shall have. Sort of like, in another sense, why we don't fly around or bend space and time... it would blow some people's minds or sense of reality. 

Thanks for the "Buddhist" sentiments as well, as that is sort of what I was getting at. I am a fan of Shinto and Zen philosophies and Taoism too. Although I was raised Christian. My father is a minister and so was his father. My brother took a shot at it for awhile, but now works in hospice. So, I TOTALLY understand the teachings of Christ, and always wondered at the drama and hypocrisy present in the people of the church. Seems so simple. 

And thank you, Trish for your South Park reference. My wife and I love the show, although it has somewhat "petered out" as of late. There have been some "deep" episodes though, it's true. And yes, Gary's "poop in the pants" post was amazingly funny and astute. 

Thanks to Fred for chiming in and reminding us all of our shared humanity. And that anyone can be redeemed and that all individual experiences are valid. You do what you can do for one another IN THE MOMENT. But you never know what that is until you're in it.

And lastly, thank you Noa, for attempting to understand a viewpoint that is not your own. Sometimes a "devil's advocate" is necessary for us to see how others live and breathe. Sorry if you felt threatened, it was never my intention to "change your mind". And I DO understand where you are coming from. I used to feel that way more. But I wasn't happy with myself or the world about it. I still get super riled up when watching "Lost" or "Walking Dead" and having some yahoo with a gun overpowering others. I hate guns. Would be nice if we could make all that stuff go away, eh? And as far as "Lucifer" or what-have-you goes, are you even sure you know what you're talking about? If we are all, to some degree, experiencing separation and loss, guilt and shame, and blaming anyone or anything for our problems rather than taking responsibility, perhaps we are all part of that fallen angel. And maybe, instead of wanting to chop our arm off and cast it away, we try to heal that arm... or, the old "prodigal son" yarn. That's a good one, too. And being as how we are ALL ONE, that's really not even possible. So mending and atonement (at-one-ment) are probably a better use of our "time". I agree with some of your examples of "good" and "bad", but objectivity is also an illusion, when you are speaking of others. And a lot of that is just words and labels. The world isn't that simple, and I'm not that simple-minded. I'm not accusing you of being that way either, but if you go throwing words around, don't be surprised at what some others might say. We all come from different backgrounds and experience. 

Lastly, thanks to the gathering spot, old members and new, for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this rambling on post. Love you all, Christopher

If anyone is interested, I have found doing The Work of Byron Katie to be a real eye-opener - the beliefs that I have about myself and other people are not what they seem to be. It's relevant to this topic and also to any situation where strong feelings arise.

Free "little book" pdf: http://thework.com/downloads/little_book/English_LB.pdf

YouTube video - introduction to The Work (I don't seem to have the option to embed video right now):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EP88LrO8k0

Love, Trish